In this episode, we talk to Karen Whittet, Associate Director of Career Counseling and international student and PCA Ola Dubno about career exploration and career development for international students.
In this episode, we talk to Karen Whittet, Associate Director of Career Counseling and international student and PCA Ola Dubno about career exploration and career development for international students.
Don't forget to check out the following resources:
1) PCA Open Hours
2) Center for Career Exploration Events and Workshops
3) Brown Connect Plus
4) Handshake
5) Interstride
Music provided by Blue Dot Sessions, Greylock.
Host (Anastasia Dementieva) [00:06 - 01:09]: Hello, this is Worldview Wavelengths, a podcast by the International Student Advising Team in the College here at Brown University. I'm your host, Anastasia Dementieva, and I'm the International Student Program Manager.
If you're new here, this podcast is here to provide you with all sorts of resources about how to navigate academics and finances as an international student at Brown. While we mainly focus on F1 visa-holding undergraduate students, all are invited to tune in and listen.
Today we focus on something that's very relevant to international students, career exploration. Joining me today are two very special guests from the Center for Career Exploration, and that is Karen Whittet, Associate Director of Career Counseling, and Ola Dubno, Peer Career Advisor.
Karen, Ola, thank you so much for being here with us today. Before we jump into the topic of today, could I quickly ask you to introduce yourself for our audience? And Karen, could I start with you?
Karen Whittet [01:10 - 01:55]: Sure. Thank you so much. My name is Karen Whittet. I'm an Associate Director of Career Counseling in the Center for Career Exploration. So in that role, I'm on the career counseling team, and there are five of us on the team. We all serve as an opportunity to meet with students through appointments.
And in those appointments, we talk with students about everything from setting goals around an internship or a job search, as well as exploration. A lot of students don't know exactly what they want to do for opportunities outside of Brown.
So we'll talk with students about that journey, reflecting on their skills, values, and interests. And we find that talking with students is a really great way for us to connect and for them to get some individualized support. Thank you. And Ola, what do you do?
Ola Dubno [01:55 - 02:19]: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. My name's Ola Dubno. I'm a junior from Warsaw, Poland. I study neuroscience and economics.
I'm also a peer career advisor at the Career Center with Karen, where we help out students with resumes, cover letters, interviews, searching for internships, searching for jobs, just anything career related under the sun almost every single day.
Host [02:20 - 02:28]: Well, it really does sound like you're helping students in many different ways. What is your favorite part of the job at the Center for Career Exploration?
Ola Dubno [02:29 - 03:11]: Absolutely, yeah. I think people and just generally meeting people is my favorite part of the day-to-day job, both on a level of the different peer career advisors and the different career paths that they take.
We have people who are concentrating in so many different things but are all so passionate about careers and just giving career advice to others and are all just so nice to one another and it's genuinely such a pleasure to go and work a shift every single time.
It's also really fun to get to meet people that are at different stages of their careers, also in a variety of different fields, also every single day, just getting to talk to them about what stage of their career they're at, what they're looking for right now, and trying to give them advice at that stage.
Host [03:11 - 03:14]: That's a really good answer. Carol, what about you?
Karen Whittet [03:14 - 03:48]: Sure. Yeah. So one of my favorite parts of my role is meeting students and meeting them in ways where they're sharing all of the amazing experiences that they've had.
I joke that you never know what you're going to get when someone comes into my office because, as you know, Brown students have such unique experiences and backgrounds. And I love learning about what they're doing on campus, how those may translate to career interests.
And I'm always surprised I learn something new from students all the time. So that's really my favorite part is just listening to students, learning from them, and really helping support them as best we can.
Host [03:49 - 03:57]: You said that you never know what's going to happen when you enter in your office. Are there some common concerns that you hear, particularly from international students?
Karen Whittet [03:58 - 05:03]: Sure, absolutely. So yes, many international students, as you may know, would like to work in the United States, whether that's during the summer or post-graduation. And there's challenges that come along with that.
Not all employers may be open to receiving applications from international students, although we know there are many pathways for them to successfully do that. So sometimes when they're looking at job opportunities, there may be language around limiting sponsorship or not accepting OPT or CPT. And so sometimes students get discouraged by that.
Our role is to really help them through that process, help them also think of other potential options while still supporting that main goal of trying to stay in the United States, but thinking about what could another plan look like if that may not be attainable for that particular summer or post-grad. So it's really meeting them where they're at, but also really supporting them to think about other ways to maybe obtain that first job after Brown.
Host [05:04 - 05:24]:Yeah, I think that's an excellent point about understanding what is your goal through that experience and how can you achieve that same goal in a perhaps different way. Ola, you obviously are a PCA and an international student. How does what Karen just talked about resonate with you in your personal experience?
Ola Dubno [05:24 - 06:16]: When it comes to my personal experience, I definitely feel that currently looking for internships in the United States and struggling with CPT and OPT and sort of the limitations that come with that and employers not wanting to sponsor students that they know might require visa sponsorship in the future.
As both a freshman and a sophomore, I mostly looked for opportunities in Europe, partially because I did want to go home for the summer, and that was a big deal for me, but also because I felt that developing skills, it doesn't really matter where it occurs.
And developing them in Europe and doing it in research. I'm also focused mostly on neuroscience research, lab and biotech. And there's a lot of places in the EU that are available for that and really let me develop my lab skills so that I may be more competitive potentially when I go to that junior, senior year and try to start applying for lab things there.
Host [06:17 - 06:37]: I think that's, again, such a great perspective to have and the importance of building skills as a foundation for career development as opposed to being so dead set on a specific thing. So, Ola, if I could actually just follow up on that. Have there been moments as you were searching for a job that you felt that kind of uncertainty and how did you approach that?
Ola Dubno [06:37 - 08:07]: Oh, absolutely. I think last summer was the biggest challenge for me. My freshman year, I went to Belgium and worked at a lab in Belgium, and that was an absolutely amazing experience that was also partially funded by the Center for Career Exploration. It was like a student-generated opportunity, but funded by the Link Award.
And then my sophomore summer, I also was looking, I was looking in Belgium and reaching out to that same lab, seeing if there was anybody else that they might connect me to. And they connected me to a number of companies that I was really excited about working for, but none of them really ended up working out, both in terms of timing, in terms of funding, etc. And I was reaching the point where it was getting quite late in the year, and I didn't really have anything secured, and I was definitely getting very, very stressed about it.
At the time, I was also part of the Women's Launchpad program, which is a mentorship program offered by the Career Center, which I would highly, highly recommend, where I was paired with a mentor who also, she works in the U.S., but was also in biotech and consulting. And I talked to her about this challenge.
And she told me how really not every single internship and not every single opportunity has had to be this like huge leap forward in my career, that a lot of the time it's okay to play it safe, you know, sometimes and just have it, yeah, have that opportunity to further those skills, even if it's just a little bit. So I actually ended up going back to that same lab in Belgium for that second summer and developing those skills that I already kind of had, but could still grow on.
Host [08:07 - 08:27]: And you can always keep growing in your skills. Something that we talk a lot about is how incremental small changes over time will get you to where you need to get. It's actually pretty rare to just have a huge leap and get to your dream job right away. I mean, personally, that was not my experience. And I don't know, Karen, in your experience.
Karen Whittet [08:27 - 10:00]: How common is it to be going through uncertainty, challenges? Absolutely. For all Brown students, that's quite common. That's really the bulk of what the career counseling team talks with students about is identifying that uncertainty and then guiding them through maybe creating an action plan, figuring out what goals they have and how they can accomplish those.
But sometimes it just starts with reflection and thinking about what, you know, maybe how your experiences at Brown may translate into different career opportunities. As you both mentioned earlier, you know, skill building and for all students and international students, the opportunity to work on campus at Brown is such a valuable way to build skills and experiences and make connections on campus and build community in your workplace, as Ola has done in the Career Center. We love our PCAs.
And so we want students to think about that skill building taking place in all areas of their Brown experience. And so that then can help translate when they're looking for jobs to be able to articulate those skills and that they have those transferable skills that maybe they developed in a campus job or research with a professor on campus that then you can demonstrate to a future employer that you have those skills and experience that they're looking for. So there is a lot of uncertainty, so we're really wanting to build that confidence in students so they feel comfortable in what value they can share with employers.
Host [10:03 - 10:21]: I really love to hear then a question that I often receive from first year international students is I have no prior job experience and I don't have any of the skills that are listed on this job. So what is something that they could benefit from coming to the career center in this situation? Sure.
Karen Whittet [10:22 - 11:23]: So we often talk with students in that situation about getting involved on campus. It doesn't have to be a paid campus job. It's also getting involved in clubs and activities, student organizations.
And as a first year, sometimes it takes a full year to find your community and the types of activities you want to be involved in on campus. And perhaps you'll grow in leadership in those roles. And so it doesn't mean you have to be the president of every organization, but maybe you take on a particular initiative within an organization, an event that you plan, or a newsletter you write, or whatever it may be.
And so we want students to really think about opportunities through courses, group projects, or developing collaboration skills. And certainly in activities, they may be career-based, or they could just be fun activities. But you're really it's really an opportunity that you can work with others. You can develop teamwork, leadership, you know, analytical skills, all those sorts of things. So we do a lot of reflection on that with students about getting involved in activities.
Host [11:24 - 11:34]: That's really, really excellent advice. And I want to move a little bit more to some practical information. Ola, what will be the first step for someone who is starting to look for a job?
Ola Dubno [11:35 - 12:19]: I would say the first step is to come see us, probably. As PCAs, we're absolutely open six days a week, every day except Saturday, and all the hours are on our website.
You can come in, drop in literally at any time within that time period, and there will be somebody to walk you through every single step of how to begin searching for your career, whether that's looking for people to talk to about different career options and what is available within your concentration within your field, also where to look for internships in terms of Handshake or Brown Connect Plus, how to develop a resume, even if it's starting from scratch or editing, how to write a cover letter. There's somebody who is going to be able to walk you through absolutely every part of that.
Host [12:20 - 12:24]: That's fantastic. And I know your website also has a lot of events all the time.
Karen Whittet [12:24 - 14:01]: What are some of the events that you might encourage students to attend? For students that might just be starting out, things like resume workshops, cover letter workshops, we do interviewing workshops, those skills-based workshops that gives them some foundation of how to conduct the job search.
And our PCAs are wonderful with walking students through our many resources because we know it's overwhelming. We have lots of different websites, different platforms to use, and it can feel like a lot sometimes. So even after appointments, you know, a 30-minute appointment can go quick depending on what we're talking about. We'll often refer students to the PCAs after appointments, say, hey, if you need a little bit more assistance with how to use Handshake, how to find all the many events in Handshake, check those out.
Another neat program initiative is we do career conversations with alumni. So it's an opportunity for students to meet with alumni in a smaller setting and learn from them about their career journey, their work right now. And those are all available on our website and our Handshake platform, but as well as we send out weekly emails to students.
So I would encourage all students to open our emails, right? I know you all get inundated with lots of emails on campus, but if you're engaged in this process, take 30 seconds, open the email, scan it. We send those out weekly, and that is really the best place I find for students to look at all of our events and programs to see what's coming up.
Ola Dubno [14:02 - 14:43]: Yeah, we also have an Instagram recap of all the events happening that week. So also very highly recommend looking at the Instagram because I know that's also my personal way of doing that a lot of the time of just keeping track of things.
I would also highly recommend we have some like career just fairs for different fields. And those are both great in terms of going to the actual career fair and talking to employers, which is an amazing form of practice.
Even if nothing comes of it, like there is no internship out of it, just getting to talk to someone and network and present your resume and know how to do an elevator pitch, it's just such a great motivator to get your resume in order, to get an interview prep ready, elevator pitch. There's just so many factors that go into it.
Host [14:44 - 14:59]: Love that. And earlier, you even mentioned about the power of networking. So I'm wondering, what are some other resources available to start building network, get advice on career, and even going back to that self-reflection and self-awareness piece of it?
Karen Whittet [15:00 - 16:23]: Sure. We have an amazing Brown alumni network. We're so fortunate to have so many engaged alumni who want to support our students. So for example, what I mentioned earlier, the career conversations, there are alumni that come back. And so that's a great way for students to connect with alumni at the fairs. Often the representatives from the organizations are alumni.
But primarily, our platform, Brown Connect Plus, is where students can search a people directory of over 100,000 Brown alumni by career, field, industry, keyword, company name, all sorts of things. There's even an opportunity for international students to search for alumni, international alumni working in the United States. And I really like showing that feature to international students because it's a great way, as Ola mentioned earlier, to talk with alumni who maybe have gone through a similar experience of finding employment in the United States, if that's the student's goal.
The platform is a great resource. You can come meet with Ola and her team to get a tutorial of that if you're a little bit overwhelmed. It has a bunch of different features. There's also a mentoring program in there that Ola mentioned earlier. The Women's Launchpad is one of the many types of mentoring programs the center offers. So definitely check out Brown Connect Plus and come to open hours if you need some assistance with navigating it.
Ola Dubno [16:24 - 17:07]: Yeah, I think Brown Connect Plus is generally one of my favorite features, especially probably for underclassmen here at Brown who might have a vague idea of what they want to concentrate in, what career industry or field they want to go into.
But sometimes an idea sounds really good to us, but in practice, we're not actually in love with what the day-to-day looks like in that field. So I really recommend that students go and look for people that might seem interesting to them on Brown Connect Plus or people who might be working in places that they think they might want to work in and just talk to them, get to know them.
People love talking about themselves and what they do on the day to day and just building that kind of a relationship and really doing some research at the end of the day of whether this is a life that they want to be a part of.
Karen Whittet [17:08 - 18:08]: And one thing I wanted to add just about networking, I do want to recognize that it's not the easiest thing for a lot of students. And we know that this may feel very new and different when I recommend that you send an email to an alum and ask for a conversation to learn about their career.
And so we will talk with students about that process in an appointment and really walk through those steps, encourage them, even practice interviewing or informational interviewing questions if needed, and really provide that encouragement to students because we know for many underclassmen especially, that's quite new. And the PCAs I know can share their stories in open hours about the success that they've had.
And the challenge is too, right? Not everything always works the way you want. Maybe an alum doesn't write you back, but that's okay. You're patient and you move on to another alum. So I did want to just make sure that students know that they can come to us if they're feeling overwhelmed by the concept of informational interviewing and networking.
Host [18:09 - 18:22]: That's great. And another one that I heard from a lot of people is cold emailing and just the fear that comes with that. And, you know, just where do you even begin with a cold email? Is there any quick advice that we can give on that?
Ola Dubno [18:22 - 18:57]: At some point, it's really just... click send, to be fair, is probably the hardest part with cold emailing. Keeping cold emails short and sweet, I find, is really useful. Just giving the absolute basics of the information of who you are and what you want to talk to an alum about, that you're really interested in a particular thing that they might be doing and that you'd love to talk to them about it.
This is somebody that you're also reaching out to, hoping that they'll spend some of their free time talking to you. So keeping it as short and sweet as possible so that they can just glance at it and respond very quickly is a really good strategy.
Karen Whittet [18:58 - 19:36]: And we have some sample emails that students can use to model their own email. So that is super helpful when they see that, oh, this is attainable. I can just copy and paste and edit it a little bit.
And I remind students that when an alum does write back or somebody does write back to you, that means they want to talk with you. They're excited. Right. To talk about their career, learn a little bit what's going on at Brown right now. And if they're too busy, they just won't write back. And that's fine.
And you just move on. So there's really no harm with that sort of cold email concept because it makes us feel good when someone does respond. And if they don't, then we just move on to the next.
Host [19:37 - 19:43]: I love that shift of mindset. So we talked a little bit about Brown Plus Connect. And can you tell me about Interstride?
Karen Whittet [19:44 - 20:39]: Sure. So Interstride is a platform that the Career Center provides to all Brown students. And it is an opportunity for international students to search for employers that have sponsored international students for previous jobs, and it also has an extensive job board for students to review and is a really great way for international students who are looking for work in the United States to access that information.
The platform also is for all students who are looking for opportunities internationally. So if you're looking in your home country or another country that you might want to look for work, it has great resources about the visa process, the job board specific to that country, living in that country. So it's a great resource that we really recommend international students access. Absolutely.
Ola Dubno [20:39 - 21:25]: I've also used Interstride in the past in complement with Handshake, which is one of our biggest resources when it comes to searching for job opportunities, but also internship opportunities. You can set up your profile there with all of your Brown credentials, fill it out almost like you would a LinkedIn profile.
As much information as you provide it, that's how the algorithm is going to throw internships and jobs back at you. We would really recommend for putting out as much information as you can on there.
Then you can look at these opportunities and look at particular employers on Handshake and then go on to Interstride, and check how much this employer has sponsored students in the past, whether they're open to H-1B visas, whether they're open to CPT, whether they're open to OPT. And based on that, you can really make some great decisions in terms of the kind of internships and jobs you want to apply to on Handshake.
Karen Whittet [21:25 - 21:42]: And that's another platform that if you need a little bit of support in navigating how to use both Handshake and InterStride come to our PCA open hours because they're trained on how to use all of these platforms and can provide tutorials and some sample searches to work with the students to explain how those systems work.
Host [21:43 - 22:08]: Thank you so much for sharing all of this. I feel like we really covered a lot of resources and a lot of information, so I will make sure to link all of this in the description of this episode. As we wrap up, I have one question for both of you. And that is, what are some words of wisdom that you might have for yourself or you wish you knew when you were first starting your job? And maybe Ola, if I can start with you.
Ola Dubno [22:09 - 22:50]: I mean, I'd say I'm still probably somewhere around the start line. But as I was starting, I think, first of all, breathe is a big one for me and definitely just take it bit by bit, but also try to be as organized as possible about it and just sort of create structure around it and have a place of support, both in terms of like actual support of, you know, the career center and PCAs and just knowing who to turn to, but also having friends that you can vent to about current career struggles.
I think also like as an international student, so much of the international student community is just venting about like what life is like as an international.
Karen Whittet [22:51 - 22:51]: Right.
Host [22:52 - 22:53]: Karen, what about you?
Karen Whittet [22:53 - 23:57]: I would say that even when you begin your first job after college, remind yourself that it's okay to still be a little uncertain. And a lot of your career development will actually take place while you're working, where you meet people, you build your skills, add new skills, learn about different work environments. And that journey will continue.
And your first job after college is not your forever job. You will probably change jobs. And that's okay because you will have the opportunity to really learn and grow and continue that through Brown and after.
So I think that's a really important thing for students to remember and something that I remind myself when I look back. Many years after, from when I graduated that, I'm doing something very different than I did at that time. And that's a good thing. So we say that first job after college is not your forever job. That's what we remind students quite often. And I think they appreciate that when they hear it.
Host [23:57 - 24:06]: Yeah, that is a very good point. Ola, you'll have to come back to re-record this podcast 10 years from now and we will be seeing where I've ended up.
Ola Dubno [24:06 - 24:07]: Exactly.
Host [24:07 - 24:20]: So one question that I always ask on these podcasts to sort of wrap it up is what advice would you give to an international student who's feeling a little bit overwhelmed right now about the job search process in five words or less?
Karen Whittet [24:20 - 24:27]: I'll try. I don't know if it's going to be five. I would say visit staff at the Career Center in person.
Ola Dubno [24:27 - 24:36]: Excellent. I'm just going to say, like, be organized and get support.
Host: Thank you both so much for coming.
Karen and Ola: Thank you so much for having us.
Host [24:36 - 24:42]: And thank you all for listening. We hope you enjoyed our conversation and we'll see you next time.